Mel Robbins: The Best Window for a Career Change Is Now — Don't Miss It — Silicon Valley Girl Podcast

Marina Mogilko: You're lying there in bed at night. You're staring at the ceiling and you're running through scenarios. What if this? What if that? What if I lose my job? What if I can't pay my bills? What if AI takes over the world? But how do you stop?

Mel Robbins: I want to attack it on three different levels.

Marina Mogilko: This is Mel Robbins, whose simple, practical advice has changed millions of lives. But it didn't start that way.

Mel Robbins: I'm 57. I screwed things up for a long time. I did not achieve the success in my life that you see until my 50s. There were periods of my career that were driven by desperation and need. I had liens on my house. We were $800,000 in debt and I was the sole bread winner. The truth is desperation is an incredible motivator.

Marina Mogilko: Now she's a best-selling author. Her book Let Them is on track to become the fastest selling non-fiction book in history. She's a businesswoman running a global media company and her podcast has been nominated for a Golden Globe. And if you have that sense right now that you're like, I'm not where I want to be, great. You just woke the hell up, and what you're bumping into is your ambition. Lean into that. How do you realize that moment when you need to stop doing whatever you're doing and just shift towards something new?

Thank you so much, Mel, for being here.

Mel Robbins: Well, thank you. Yeah, it's just fascinating to talk to you because I know you inspired a lot of people who surround me. We're in a weird age where a lot of people wake up in the middle of the night worried that AI is taking away their job, that the world is changing faster than they can understand the change. When something like this hits in the middle of the night, what should people be doing to stop this anxiety?

Marina Mogilko: Well, it's an excellent question and I want to attack it on three different levels. First of all, I want to acknowledge that being nervous about something that is out of your control is a normal and healthy reaction to a moment in history when there is so much that is changing. I once heard somebody say at a big corporate conference that right now is the single slowest moment of change you'll experience for the rest of your life, which of course spiked everybody's anxiety levels in the audience. But so I want you to understand that's a normal response to an unprecedented amount of change. So there's nothing wrong with you. That's number one.

Number two is I struggled with anxiety for decades and I fundamentally did not understand what it was. I'm going to offer up a kind of larger way to think about anxiety and then we're going to talk about two tools that you can use. I always thought about anxiety as this big thing that I was going to feel forever because I had it chronically and I made a lot of mistakes that medical doctors and my psychotherapists and lots of people that specialize in anxiety have now taught me to be very helpful.

One big course correction I want you to make is I want you to stop saying "I have anxiety" and I want you to say "I feel anxious because" — and the reason why is we're going to teach you today tools that have been extremely effective for me. They have been effective for all three of my adult children. These are tools that are backed by research from medical doctors, research from people at Harvard Medical School that specialize in anxiety.

You can feel an anxious feeling and you can feel this alarm going off in your body. That's what Dr. Russell Kennedy says anxiety is. You can feel this alarm and you can learn how to slowly separate yourself from the alarm that you're feeling. That's what you're feeling if you're laying awake at 3:00 at night and you're worrying about AI and you're worrying about your bills and you're worrying about the state of the world and you're worrying about your kids and you're worrying about your parents that are getting older. All of these things are important things to worry about, but let's help you put it all in a bigger context so that you cope with it better.

Anxiety is an alarm in your body that goes off whenever there is something in the future that you feel uncertain about, which means you don't know how it's going to turn out and you feel like you can't control it.

Marina Mogilko: If you understand that it's an alarm, Dr. Russell Kennedy also says that all anxiety is separation anxiety.

Mel Robbins: Now, when he first said that, I was like, "What the hell are you talking about?" I thought, I know it is not. I'm not separate from it. And he's like, "No, no, no. You are separating from your capacity to handle whatever is going to happen."

Marina Mogilko: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Because if you really think about it, you're lying there in bed at night, you're awake, you're staring at the ceiling, and you're running through scenarios. What if this? What if that? What if I lose my job? What if I can't pay my bills? What if AI takes over the world? You've just gone up into your head, and now you're in a what-if loop. All the thinking makes the alarm worse. What I want you to know is that you're going to feel these moments for the rest of your life because there's so much that's out of your control. There is a lot of uncertainty. But here's what I want you to be certain of: what you can be certain of is that you are capable of figuring it out. You are capable through your attitude, through your actions over time. You are capable of navigating the challenges in your life.

I want you to start to understand that all moments of anxiety are a moment where you doubt your capacity to handle it. But how do you tell yourself, how do you prove to yourself that you're able to go through challenges? Sometimes I think about my path and my journey, and I'm like, "Oh, I got lucky here. I got very lucky here. And I also got lucky here." But what if I'm not lucky?

Marina Mogilko: Well, you might not be, but even if you're not lucky, even if life isn't fair, even if a lot of unlucky things happen, even if horrible things that you don't deserve happen to you, you're capable of figuring it out. You're capable of surviving it. You are capable of navigating the challenges that life throws at you. You do not have to have it all figured out. You can stand in this moment and say, "I trust in my ability to be okay. I trust in my ability to learn and grow through this. I trust in my ability to figure it out as life comes at me."

It's important to understand that what Dr. Russell Kennedy meant when he said it's separation anxiety — you're separating from the truth. And the truth is, you can figure it out. It may not be easy. It may be challenging, but you can double down on the belief that no matter what, you are capable of navigating life's challenges. Not by avoiding them, but by having your own back as they come to you and at you.

Understanding the larger context is really important. Now, let's talk about some tools that you can use. There's some really interesting research that you should do before bedtime. They did this research where you lay in bed at night and you worry about all the stuff that is coming and that you didn't do and the texts that you didn't respond to. What happened to today's meeting?

A lot of people do a gratitude practice at night, which is wonderful. But I want you to keep a little piece of paper next to your bed and write down a to-do list of all the things that you're worried about and all of the things you didn't do today. It sounds crazy.

Marina Mogilko: And here's what they found in research?

Mel Robbins: It's as effective as a prescription sleep aid. You'll fall asleep between 8 to 10 minutes faster if you do this. And here's why, based on the research: your brain runs on these open loops, and it really wants to remind you of things that it thinks are important. If you've been worrying about stuff, whether it's out in the future or all the things you didn't get to, it keeps the open loops open and the tabs open. When you write it down on a list, you're basically signaling to your mind, okay, it's right here. You can stop. You can close all the tabs.

Marina Mogilko: It's kind of done.

Mel Robbins: Yes. But then, if you're somebody that's type A or you worry a lot, you don't need to worry also because you got the list. It's going to remind you in the morning. So that's a genius tactic to help you, and you can use this in the middle of the night if you really can't let go in the moment.

Also, in the middle of the night, what I do in those times where life is terrifying — like maybe you have somebody that's waiting on a diagnosis, maybe you know layoffs are coming next week, maybe you have to break up with somebody and you've been avoiding it and avoiding it and it's something that you think about a lot when you wake up at 3:00 in the morning — I just want you to put your hand on your chest. Take a deep breath and just say, "I'm okay and I'm capable of figuring this out. This isn't going to be easy, but I know that I will be okay."

Sometimes in life, things aren't supposed to be easy. It shouldn't be easy to break up with somebody because you care about them. It shouldn't be easy to navigate health challenges. It shouldn't be easy to face a job where you might get a layoff. These are very difficult things. It is a very healthy response to life's challenges to feel the weight of them, but that doesn't mean you're not capable of handling it.

Marina Mogilko: I love that. So basically talking to yourself about being able to —

Mel Robbins: And here's one final thing: use your name. There's interesting research about the importance of words. When I say "you are capable of figuring this out" versus "I'm capable of figuring this out" — again, I didn't use the research when I was coaching you a minute ago. "You're capable of figuring this out. You're going to be okay. Like no wonder you're stressed. It's a lot and you're doing enough and you're going to be okay."

Marina Mogilko: I think you use that research because when I ask for advice, it was "you're amazing. Yes. You're doing everything right. It's just this, this, and this."

Mel Robbins: Yes. And you know, that's an interesting way to use AI — basically have it talk to you that way. I'm going through X, Y, and Z. Please validate how difficult this is and encourage and remind me that I am capable of figuring this out. Please tell me, based on research, three things that are within my ability, that I can focus on, that I'm capable of, that will help me navigate this.

Marina Mogilko: I love this. Yeah, this is how I started using AI a lot. The magical thing is then when you have a typical query like "oh I'm planning this trip" or "I want to book this hotel," it actually knows what you're going through. So it will give advice based on that. It's no longer just a recommendation. It's basically a coach that's trying to navigate your life with you.

I think for somebody who's watching or listening and going through something very difficult — like maybe you're a caregiver, whether it's of little kids or aging parents, or you're navigating a period in your life where maybe all your friends have met somebody and you've just gone through a breakup and you're the only single one in your friend group and you feel very lonely about it — one of the things that I think can be very helpful is helping you figure out how to have an assistant that's helping you navigate these things in a positive way.

Mel Robbins: Yeah, absolutely. So we talked a lot about anxiety, but for a lot of people, especially like me who are middle-aged women with kids, a lot of anxiety comes from a feeling that I'm not where I'm supposed to be in my life. I think I was meant for more. How do you realize that moment when you need to stop doing whatever you're doing and just shift towards something new? How do you do that?

Marina Mogilko: One of the things I want to validate is that if you're having a feeling that you're not where you thought you would be, I want to have you first ask: based on what?

Mel Robbins: Like your childhood dreams. I don't know.

Marina Mogilko: Okay, well, you need to be very clear. Is it based on what you want or is it based on everybody else's timelines? Because there's a big difference between feeling like you're not where you personally wanted to be based on your personal goals versus comparing your timeline to everybody else's.

Everybody, especially when you graduate from university or high school, has been in this kind of lock step with everybody moving through life, especially university, right? And then you get to your 20s and I call this the great scattering. Everybody moves in completely different directions. They follow different careers. So one of the dangerous things that happens to people in their 20s and 30s is you start to look around and you see people achieving things that you really want, but they're achieving them on a timeline that's completely different than the timeline that's meant for you.

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Marina Mogilko: There's a difference, and you've got to separate that from what is it that you actually want in life deeply versus when is it happening. Because there are very few things where there's a real timeline. One of them for women obviously is whether or not you're going to have children naturally. There is a very real timeline for that. But for everything else, I mean, for God's sakes, I'm 57. I did not achieve the success in my life that you see until my 50s, which is extraordinary. Did I want it in my 30s? You better believe I did. Did I get jealous of people that were achieving things that I wanted then? Yes, absolutely. But what that is — if you extract the timeline — there's a difference between when something happens and what is happening.

If you have that sense right now that you're like, "I'm not where I want to be," great. You just woke the hell up, and what you're bumping into is your ambition. There are things that you want. Lean into that. If you're dissatisfied with some aspect of your life, that is incredible data. The points of friction in your life tell you more about what you want than the things that are going well.

Mel Robbins: Yeah, well, I love it. But how do you stop? Like, what do you mean how do you stop? You're in a job that kind of pays the bills, right? And if you quit, it stops paying the bills.

Marina Mogilko: Yes, and you're on to this. Who said you should quit? But how do you start a new venture if you have kids in the evening and during the day?

Mel Robbins: Well, I guarantee you you have time. You're wasting it on stupid things. Look how much time you spend online. Is that advancing the things that you want? Look at how you waste time on the weekends. Look at how much time you spend watching everybody else's life versus investing that same time in building something toward the future. I don't think you should quit your job. I think you should use your job as a way to pay your bills and then get very serious with yourself. What is it that I actually want?

One of the coolest things about life right now is, when I was your age, we didn't have the internet. I didn't have social media. I didn't have AI. I couldn't do research. People were not writing memoirs or writing blogs or sharing information the way that you do. Everything was kind of this giant mystery as to how people got successful or how people built things. But you live in a moment of time where, if you get serious about protecting your time, if you get clear about what you want — and I think the reason why a lot of people are unhappy is they don't even know what they want. They just know they are not happy where they are.

How do you know what you want? I think most people don't have what they want because they haven't even stopped to define what they want. If you're somebody who is like, "Well, I don't know what I want," here's a couple pieces of advice. You can do this exercise, and this is really good for business too. Take out a blank piece of paper, draw a line down the center. On the left hand side of the page, you're going to write down absolutely everything where you feel friction in your body — everything where there is tension, what is not working about your life. You will be surprised because you know what's not working. You know that you feel terrible because you have not seen the inside of a gym in a year. You know that you hate going to your job because you feel like you're dying a slow death right now and you don't know what you want to do. You just know you don't want to do this. You know that you're feeling uninspired around the folks that you're hanging out with. It's probably largely because you're not that inspiring right now or inspired by your life. You know that you're sick of wasting 3 to 6 hours every day online. You know it, and you have a lot of internal friction about it. The same thing is true about your business. Every part of your business that you hate, that drives you crazy, that makes you frustrated — that's a point of friction. Put it down.

Now on the right side, put down the things that are going well. You may have a period of your life right now where nothing is. If you can't even think about what's going well, then you can ask yourself, "Okay, when was I the happiest? When did I feel like myself?" It might have been high school. Then ask yourself, "Well, what was it? What did my day-to-day life look like?" You'll see this pattern emerge, and the pattern is always the same.

When life is going well and you don't have friction, you're getting up, you're going somewhere, you are surrounded by your friends, you have something to do afterwards — whether it's sports or it's a project that you're interested in — you have something in the future that you're looking forward to, and you're taking care of your body. It is so standard to everybody. It's universal, and yet it feels deeply personal when you're the one stuck.

Look at the friction. Those are the things you need to change. Look at things that are going well, or remember a period in your life where you really enjoyed your life. Your life holds the data. Find it and then do the things that you used to be doing that made you feel good when you felt good in your life. You will realize, "My god, I have not prioritized friendship. Wow, I've been so busy watching fitness influencer videos, I don't actually do anything with my body. I beat myself up because all I do is watch people that have 40 hours to do meal prep, but then I eat like crap because I'm so stressed out and now I'm in this cycle with myself."

The friction side are all the things you need to think about. How could I make small gains and improve that area? The positive side are things you need to add in or continue doing. That's one way you can attack this.

Second way you can attack this is notice who you're jealous of. Jealousy is a very powerful emotion because jealousy is very personal. It is impossible for you to be jealous of something you don't want. Like, I'm not jealous of somebody who drives a purple Lamborghini. I don't want one. I really don't. I don't even think it's an interesting looking car. It has no relevance to my life. But if I see someone who is — right now, a person that I'm jealous of is almost the wrong word, but I really admire Steven Bartlett, Diary of the CEO.

Marina Mogilko: Same here. Very close friend of mine. I love him. He is one of the most generous people in the world and I love seeing him win. He is world class when it comes to video production.

Mel Robbins: And every time I see his work, there's a part of me that's like, "Oh, it's so good. I want to be that good," you know what I mean? It's this mix of like "ah" and "oh." So anybody that you're jealous of, there's something about the way they're moving through life. There's something about how they take care of themselves. There's something about their energy. There's something about their relationship. There's something about the way they do business that you're drawn toward.

The reason why it comes across as jealousy instead of inspiration is because deep down you know you want this thing, but you are through your self-doubt and anxiety blocking yourself from moving toward it. Jealousy is blocked ambition. Jealousy is blocked desire. The interesting thing is, the second you start working toward the thing that you want, you don't feel jealous of people anymore because you're giving yourself permission to pursue something that you really want.

All the influencers that people are jealous of, all of the people online that you see making money that you're jealous of — you roll your eyes, you're annoyed by them. I guarantee you, you wish you'd learned how to make money online. That's why you feel that way.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: So pay attention to jealousy. It is a road map toward the things that you're interested in. That's another way that you can start to identify and find the courage to say, "Actually I really do want to do this thing and nobody is going to come and do this for me. It's up to me. It's not about finding a partner who's going to pay for your life. It's about you recognizing what are your ambitions and what are the things that you want. Because you have, through your brain and through your actions, the ability over time to create incredible things. But you will not create them if you sit there and you know exactly what you want if you take the time to really be honest with yourself."

You get one life. Why waste it watching everybody else do the things that you've always wanted to do? You can figure stuff out.

Marina Mogilko: I'm really glad you brought up Stephen, and I'm really glad how you're talking about this. Because when I look at him and I absolutely love what he's doing, but then I look at his lifestyle — he's constantly on the go. My kids are six and four. They will not forgive me if I do this to that — constantly being on a flight.

Mel Robbins: Okay, this is great. This is great because here's what you're going to do. You use these tools that I'm giving you to remove the biggest obstacle that you have, which is you're the biggest no when it comes to the things that you want. Your job is not to say no to yourself. Your job is to be the loudest yes. "I can figure that out."

So when you start to notice — okay, jealousy gives you a beacon. It's like something out in the future that helps you pivot a couple degrees and start prioritizing something that helps you move in a different direction — you will then pull it back to yourself. You have to then go, "Okay, well, what do I value? I have two young kids. I am — I do not want to be on a plane. And so, I can move toward that, but I've got to do it in a way that's me. I've got to do it in a way that works for my timeline because one of my core values is I'm not a single dude that is just like gunning and ambitious and just wanting to work work work. I want to make room for being a mom."

That's how you make it personal because one of the other things that got in my way for a long time, and I know gets in the way of so many people is, "Oh, I don't want to copy anybody. It's already been done. You cannot copy anybody else because first of all, everybody is copying everybody else because we are drawing inspiration from other people.

Marina Mogilko: Absolutely.

Mel Robbins: And you won't ever copy them because it's impossible to do exactly what somebody else is doing. You will always put your own spin on it. You will always do it on your own timeline. You will always always always do it in a way that is unique to you because you have different values. You have a different singular purpose here and other people are not blocking you from doing it. Other people are helping you lead yourself in a particular direction. That's what jealousy helps you identify. It helps you flip jealousy into inspiration. It helps you see other people not as competitors but as people that can lead you toward things, that can teach you things.

You also have to be awake enough and clear enough that if you want kids, if you want a family life, if there are things that are more important to you or as important to you as your ambition and as making money and launching something that's your own, then you will have to figure out a way to have all of it be part of one big pie that you call life. That's why you're never going to copy anybody else because you can't. You get inspiration. You can even hire somebody's exact team and it will never be the same as what somebody else is doing.

Marina Mogilko: Absolutely. But then the timeline is super helpful because if you're comparing yourself to Stephen like, "Oh, how old is he already?" But then you're like, "He's on a different path."

Mel Robbins: You have a different timeline. I am so grateful that everything happened to me late in life, and in my 30s and 40s, you know, I was like, "When is it going to happen? Like, why can't I be successful?" You know, I'm happy for my girlfriends and my male friends that are like getting career advances and buying bigger houses, and "woe is me. When is it going to be my turn?" I have come to believe — I really believe this — if you are a good person, if you have character, if you're clear about what you want, and if you can throw your timeline out the window, I refuse to believe you will not be successful. I refuse. I am convinced that success is about not quitting and that there is something meant for you in the future. If you just keep putting your head down and you keep defining what you want and you keep inching yourself forward, and you really work on being a good person too, it will work out for you. It will.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah. It's a matter of not quitting, not saying no to yourself, and understanding that there is a moment for you in the future when all of this hard work pays off. You will never be able to predict how magical, how different it's going to be than you thought it was when you got started, or when you're in the trenches, or when your first business fails, or when the 17th investment person says, "No, I'm not going to invest in your thing," or when kids come and now you have to slow down and the timeline has to expand because there's more important priorities.

Mel Robbins: 100%. That's the cool thing about life.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah, that's awesome. So when you realize, okay, I want this — this is like, I'm not going to push myself. How do you deal with FOMO? Because when you look at someone you admire or you're jealous of, they're doing this, this, and that. And you're like, oh, did I have to be there, too? How many things should I fit in my calendar? How do you deal with this?

Mel Robbins: How do I deal with this? With FOMO? I don't experience it that much.

Marina Mogilko: How?

Mel Robbins: Well, what do you mean how? Because with social media, like we're flooded by all the opportunities and like seeing people do that. But here's what I want you to understand: see, social media is for you. You are either using it as a tool or you become the tool. I'm not saying that in a positive way. Social media is the most extraordinary tool in the world to do research, to market yourself, to get your message out, to connect with like-minded people. If you are maniacal about using it as a tool to achieve something, you will be wildly successful and you will manage your time and your attention.

If you don't do it that way — think about your social media accounts. They're for you. They're not for your high school and college friends. They're not for your family. They're for you and your self-expression and your business. So there is the output on social media. But then the thing that most of us don't pay attention to is the value of your attention. What are you allowing as input? The more time you spend on that, the more money everybody else makes. You have to be really really careful because what you allow in is what programs your mind, is what changes your energy.

If you are currently experiencing FOMO, it's because you don't use social media correctly. In my opinion, it's very normal to feel FOMO, but the second you start feeling like you're going down that tunnel, you have to develop habits to be able to go, "This is not helping me right now."

Marina Mogilko: How do you decide when it's not something for you? How do you say no? Do you have like criteria? For example, I've heard Tim Ferriss mention it — how he makes decisions these days. Is the person suggesting this going to uplift me? Like, does he have skills that I want to learn? Second, is this project going to take me towards the goal? Do you have like a list of questions you ask yourself to determine whether the opportunity is for you or not?

Mel Robbins: Well, it's a great question. I think that every opportunity that you get, you have to ask yourself: is this advancing something that's important to me? What am I? How will I measure that this opportunity was a successful use of my time? See, I'm the kind of person that reverse engineers everything.

Let's say that you get an invitation to attend some sort of business thing, right? Ask yourself: what would have to happen in order for this to have been a good use of my time? Because if you don't know the answer to that, then you don't value your time. You're just like a fish swimming around hoping somebody catches you.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: You understand. If everything's important, nothing is. The single most important commodity that you have is your time. The second one is your attention. The third is your energy. What is the value of your time? There are going to be plenty of events or meetings or whatever where it is important and worth your time to go to the meeting simply so that a person that you are going to meet with will talk about you in rooms you won't be in in a very positive way. There are certain moments where it's important to go to an event that you have no desire to go to simply so you can get a photo at the event that then you can use on your website that helps build the perception that you're doing something.

Do you see how you know going in what you want to get out of it?

Marina Mogilko: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: That's how you actually value your time. You anchor it to an outcome that's worthy of your time.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah, that's important for you, right?

Mel Robbins: Uh-huh. Because too many people show up at things going, "Oh, I'm just supposed to be at this thing." What if I meet this person? You might, but what if you were to go to the next networking event and say, "I'm going and I'm not allowed to leave until I get seven people's contact information." Do you see how different that is?

Marina Mogilko: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Now you're going with a purpose. Now you're going because you value your time. You could do a little research and go, "Oh, I think so and so is going to be there. I'm not allowed to leave until I walk up and introduce myself and I ask this question." That's the purpose of going.

Marina Mogilko: One ask, right? One purpose. Love it.

Mel Robbins: Yeah. Because that focuses you. Let's talk about money and anxiety. Okay?

Marina Mogilko: This is a personal question for me. Like, I don't know where it's coming from. I feel like the immigrant mindset, but basically my self-worth is really dependent on my productivity and how much money I'm making. What is wrong with this and how do you work with this?

Mel Robbins: Well, I don't know that there's anything wrong with it. See, for me, I can't climb up into your brain and tell you what's right or wrong for you. I can just tell you based on the research and based on things that I've tried for myself. What's been helpful to me?

Marina Mogilko: Yeah. Have you ever had this problem? Like, the views define your worth or like the achievements define your worth, money?

Mel Robbins: Of course. So here's the thing to ask yourself: I am really focused on what's in my control and what's not in my control. You are never in control of the views on your videos or the downloads on your podcast or how many people.

Marina Mogilko: You kind of are.

Mel Robbins: No, I'm not. No, I'm not. Absolutely not.

Marina Mogilko: Why not?

Mel Robbins: Because I don't control whether or not another human being is going to wake up tomorrow and make time to hit play on something that I do. Don't ever take that for granted. Like, I have to wake up every day and say, "How do I make the next episode worthy of someone's time?" You can't guarantee the result. The only thing you can control is the process, the mission and the intention and the systems that create the desired result.

Too many people focus on the result instead of focusing on the systems that create the result. You know, James Clear, who wrote Atomic Habits, has this great thing where he does — I think — the four things that people make wrong about goals. People who win and people who lose have the exact same goals. The best team in the NBA and the worst team all have the goal to win the championship. Think about the difference between a person who is in business who says, "I want to build a business that has — whatever. I want to build a business that does a million dollars in revenues this year." That